The Franconia shootings

[KBCraig]

Having read all the articles on this, I've concluded that George Floyd is the only hero. Liko Kenney was apparently not undeserving of some police attention, but Bruce McKay was apparently a badge-heavy authoritarian in a small town with a small police department. That's a poor place to have poor people skills.

Thoughts?

[Quantrill]

While it looks like this cop may have been a jerk, you don't shoot someone because they beat your ass a few years back.  I've had some negative encounters with the cops but would never shoot someone because I felt he was picking on me.  We'll never know if McKay really assaulted Kenny previously.  I do know that in a skirmish with the police, the cops rarely if ever get charged with assault.

The articles suggest that the bystander told Kenney to put down his gun, then shot him when Kenney refused.  The authorities say they aren't gonna charge the bystander with a crime.  What I'm wondering is, if McKay had shot Kenney would the bystander be charged if he then shot McKay?

[powerchuter]

No person has any supposed "authority" or "jurisdiction" over any other person or people...

The police are only operating under "mob rules" and are just as criminally liable for the initiation of force against any other person...as any other person would be...

Until we educate the public about aggression and the initiation of force...and how most become unwitting supporters of it, either directly or indirectly, by what they do and don't do...and what "government" "programs" they participate in, and/or approve of...

We are going to continue to live in a police state...where the jack-booted thugs operating under "mob rules" are everywhere...and where they continue to harrass and persecute individuals and groups...to the point of theft, robbery, rape, assault, murder, and genecide...

It's up to us to show the world that we will not allow, nor be subject to, this mob rule...

I'll say it again...

NO PERSON HAS ANY SUPPOSED "AUTHORITY" OR "JURISDICTION" OVER ANY OTHER PERSON!!!

Cops are no different from anyone else...except that the mob gets together and puts a costume, a piece of tin, and guns on them...and then pays them to go out and commit aggression and initiation of force against others...it's criminal actually...

Just say "NO" to jack-booted mobsters getting away with theft, robbery, rape, assault, murder, and genecide!

[penguins4me]

McKay stopped Kenney for speeding

I'd read about this elsewhere and had dismissed it as an isolated incident, due to insufficient info, only noteworthy because a passerby shot the civilian with the officer's firearm. How often does that happen?

Anyhow, now that there's a bit more to the story, alleged harassment, etc., telling the cop to "get another officer" sounds downright reasonable. The police knew who Kenny was, speeding isn't even a misdemeanor (a "civil" offense, so I'm told). I'm apt to do the same thing if an unmarked car tries to get me to pull over, though I'd end up (sowly) going directly to a police station assuming I can't call 911 and get a confirmation that way.

Anti-violence advocates aside, from the available info, I'm hard-pressed to condemn Floyd, either - what would you do if you witnessed a person gun down someone else and had possible means to prevent further harm dealt? I can't say I'd do much different if I were unfortunate enough to run across something, assuming Floyd did tell Kenny to disarm or at least stop the assault, etc. - I'd not go for someone else's firearm though.

The end results are absolutely terrible, though - assuming the cop was abusing his authority, he should have been fired and made restitution rather than being killed, and Kenney should have been tried by an informed impartial jury. Floyd chose to involve himself in the situation, and that decision aside, I don't see how he can be blamed for the outcome: life-and-death scenarios rarely leave time for calm, rational discussion.

I do think Floyd was quite foolish to get involved without bringing his own firearm along.

[KBCraig]

My take is pretty much like penguins4me's. To include, having my own gun available, instead of picking up a stranger's gun.

Floyd was reacting to seeing a police officer being shot four times (while walking away from the stopped car) and then run over. Whatever went on before, no matter how abusive of his authority McKay may have been, he was not presenting an immediate threat of deadly force to Kenney, so deadly force in return was not justified. I'll also note that McKay's use of OC spray was probably unjustified, not to mention ineffective, since after spraying both driver and passenger, the driver could see well enough to shoot him four times.

McKay was also absolutely wrong in not calling for another officer, given his history with Kenney. Since Franconia only has three active and three reserve officers, he might have had to call on a Grafton deputy or a trooper from NHSP. Big whoop. Swallow the pride; don't escalate.

That last part --pride and escalation-- seems to be a problem with certain police officers who see themselves as Law Enforcers instead of Peace Officers. McKay was from New York. He was rigid. He was an officer in a rural town of fewer than 1,000 people, north of the Notches, where backup can be spotty, and where the local families have managed just fine for 250 years without heavy-handed New Yorkers hauling them to jail.

Like I said, a badge-heavy authoritarian in a small town is a bad idea when it comes to longevity. People skills can save your life, whether you're a cop or a revolutionary.

Kevin

[Lloyd Danforth]

Ridding a community of a  Badge heavy authoritarian calls for stealth.  Kenny, apparently lacked it.  Floyd may have picked up the  gun and used it because he might have thought he was  next, as he was a witness.

[Raineyrocks]

I read that Floyd said McKay had a gun in his hand and he told him to put it down but Mckay didn't so Floyd shot him.

I bet if it wasn't a cop that was shot there would've been a bigger investigation into Floyd's actions.  Unfortunately Mckay's side will never be heard.

[roadworthy]

McKay was the cop.

The information presented by Kenney's passenger, the statements of Floyd and his son and the footage from the dash cam do not seem to be in contention with each other.

 

[David]

Quote KBCraig > People skills can save your life, whether you're a cop or a revolutionary.

Yup. 

[KBCraig]

I'd really like to see a diagram of the scene. The print reports have done a very bad job of describing the layout. It's hard to picture where the individuals were.

I'd also like to know how many shots were fired, by both Kenney and Floyd.

[KBCraig]

Quote KBCraig > People skills can save your life, whether you're a cop or a revolutionary.

Yup. 

To expound on that: It doesn't matter whether you know you have the right to be a raging asshole, or just think you have the authority to do so unchecked, sooner or later it's going to put you in a bad spot.

Getting along is so much easier. Then when you encounter someone who's determined to be "not nice", you've got some flexibility and room to move.

[Pat McCotter]

Quote KBCraig > People skills can save your life, whether you're a cop or a revolutionary.

Yup. 

To expound on that: It doesn't matter whether you know you have the right to be a raging asshole, or just think you have the authority to do so unchecked, sooner or later it's going to put you in a bad spot.

Getting along is so much easier. Then when you encounter someone who's determined to be "not nice", you've got some flexibility and room to move.

A little "Road House" philosophy?

[powerchuter]

Liko Kenney got what he deserved.  End of story!

NOT AT ALL!

I beg to differ!

This situation was aggravated AND escalated BY the "you must obey my authority" officer.  Liko Kenney was trying to DIFFUSE a potentially bad situation by asking McKay to have another officer come to the scene.  When McKay refused, Kenney was probably getting pretty scared by this time since McKay had broken Kenney's jaw in an earlier incident several years before.

I CAN'T fault Kenney for trying to get away from a physically abusive, power-mad person...officer or not...

I CAN fault McKay for driving after Kenney...and continuing and escalating this situation...running Kenney's car off the road and blocking it...then coming up to Kenney's car and spraying the occupants with pepper spray!

There was so much "aggression" and "initiation of force" on the part of this person, McKay, against another person, Kenney!

The whole situation is totally UNACCEPTABLE!

I like to use the Non-Aggression Principle and the Golden Rule to "evaluate" any and all situations.

In this case there was obvious aggression and initiation of force committed by McKay.
McKay would not have subjected himself to someone else doing this to him!

Let's "change out" the characters to more fully illustrate the extent of the problems with this confrontation, the aggression and initiation of force, and the attempts made to escalate, and to diffuse, this aggression.

Let's replace McKay's character with "the husband" and replace Kenney's character with "the wife"...
They are having a confrontation...wife drives away...husband runs wife off road and blocks car...wife fears for her life as husband has broke her jaw before...husband pepper sprays wife...wife shoots husband in defense of her life and sovereignty...

Now doesn't that show the situation for what it really was!?!

Always...ALWAYS!...subject a situation to the non-aggression principle, the golden rule, and a change out of characters to immediately show the wrongness of the party aggressing and initiating force!

Just my humble, honest opinion....

[Raineyrocks]

That was a great way of explaining the situation Powerchuter!

[Dreepa]

Today's CM:
http://concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/REPOSITORY/705150424

And of course they have to talk about Floyd's past:
http://concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/REPOSITORY/705150420

Police admired Floyd:
http://concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/REPOSITORY/705150354

I find this last one interesting... many times we read that the police say ' don't take this into your own hands... leave it to us professionals'